Have you ever wondered about the intersection of change management and project management? How do people come into play in these processes? How can we, as project managers, department leaders and Average Joe employees work within our own spheres of influence to make transitions as smooth as possible?

If you have any interest in these topics, you’re going to love this interview with Bas de Baar. Bas holds a masters degree in Business Informatics and currently is the editor of SoftwareProjects.org and author of Project Shrink. He is an expert in project management and we recently connected on the topic of the intersection of project management and change management. I hope you’ll find the interview as enlightening as I did.

Bas, thank you for agreeing to this interview. We’ve chatted briefly about the intersection of project management and change management and I’d like to use this opportunity to explore that relationship further.

First, I’d like to ask you to tell us a bit about your background as a project manager and how you came to the conclusion that “Projects Are About Humans, Now Deal With That!” It’s a great statement and it seems that you must have arrived at it based on some hard experience!

Everybody agrees on this statement. Everyone that has spent one minute on a project knows the truth of it. And somehow we just seem to forget, over and over again. So, I put this line on top of every page, just to remind me and my colleagues.

For me this conclusion came the first half of the nineties, I was studying Business Informatics at Vrije Universtiteit in Amsterdam.  As a final exam, I performed field research at a large financial institution. The department in which my study took place was a pool of Project Managers, both novice and experienced alike.  The projects they performed suffered from what they called “interventions”, which were changes triggered by the project environment. Being educated as a plan-driven-pro, I set out my checklist and searched for forgotten process components, only to find out after a couple of months that everything was neatly in place. From standard documents to procedures, they had it all. And still the project went from left to right.

Being the eager beaver that I was, I just kept on looking and looking for the missing ingredient but could not find a single clue to locating the feature or process that would help to solve the pressing problem. At one given moment, I had an “aha”-accident (a hit on the head), which turned out to be a life altering moment professionally. At the coffee corner, I overheard fellow project team members have a conversation about a procedure that they were not going to follow… My jaw dropped. Not following the official procedure? Not complying with company policies? If they didn’t follow procedure then all the changes implemented were going to be completed without the project manager’s knowledge… clonk. The penny dropped. It seems so simple now, but it really rocked my world at the time. They forgot to deal with the people.

On Never the Same River Twice, I write a lot about ways to increase mental and emotional flexibility. Your post, 3 Steps Toward Becoming an Agile Project Manager, you tell project managers that, “To cope with the environment you need a brain that can use many mental models to look at reality. You need to be able to throw away your pre-programmed belief and adopt a different mindset in the blink of an eye.” Why, in your view is this so important and what is one thing that we can do right now to increase our mental flexibility?

There are several reasons for the need of a flexible brain. It determines the way how you view the world. I often use the example of looking at a project as a war. Project Managers are using words like “marching orders” and “the troops”. With a mindset like that,  his mind is thinking in friends and foes, allies and enemies. You are either with him or against him. This view of the world will make it very difficult to collaborate with this person if you disagree. In the end, the war metaphor effects reality. If the model is powerful enough and wide spread among more people, the model will even become a reality. The project will end up as a war. By being able to switch to a different mindset, a more productive state of mind can be adopted.

It also allows you  to understand other people’s behavior and ways of thinking. As projects are nothing more than groups of people working together, being able to be empathic with your team and stakeholders is essential.

Finally, the world is getting very complex. It is impossible to determine the precise causes to certain effects. By looking at reality from different points of view, you get a more complete sense of the problem, increasing your chance of attacking the “correct” cause of a problem.

The key for a flexible brain lies in the usual suspects: tolerance, knowledge, health. I recommend a good read on the history of politics in the middle east, starting at least 200 years ago. Very good for creating a flexible brain.

In your Updated Model of Projects and Project Management, you explain that project teams need to be resilient to cope with change. There are many different methodologies promoted to increase team and individual resiliance. In your experience, how can a project manager help his or her team increase their resiliance?

On the individual level, make sure people are motivated, are relaxed, rest and are not stressed out. For the project itself, the project manager has a lot of tools at his disposal: slack in schedule and budget, having resources double available, but also iterative processes that allow you to adapt in every cycle. 

Your post, Projects as Social Interactions, challenges the reader to think of projects as “…a localized energy field comprising a set of thoughts, emotions, and interactions continually expressing themselves in physical form.” In this context, you suggest that the project manager should attempt to steer the project team toward a goal. This seems a bit different from the traditional command and control model of management. How do you feel project management is evolving to move beyond command and control?

Actually, I think we are  moving too slow. Within software development we have agile processes that are very light in command and control, but these techniques are not mainstream yet. Within the larger companies I still see a focus on traditional ways of PM, ways that are completely in line with how these companies themselves are run. Without changing the general management style, the Project Management style will not change. Running some projects without a tight command and control structure to show the benefits will speed up that process. But in the meantime, we have a hard time convincing the dinosaurs to leave the tar pit.

What’s next in your continuing exploration of the intersections of change management and project management? And what do we have to look forward to at ProjectShrink?

In the next couple of months I am looking for ways to help us analyze complex situations; focus on dealing with offshoring within your project; how to create resilience in your project by using resources, materials, equipment and everything else on demand only. And everything else I might find interesting, as keeping a focus is my biggest challenge.

As I promised, Bas shared some great insights. If you are interested in continuing to explore these ideas, please share your questions, insights and experiences in the comments.

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• Lost 8 pounds
• Ate weeds 
• Scrubbed siding, gave people rides, and fed chickens in exchange for food
• Got extensive local and even some national media coverage 
• Took advantage of a matching donation opportunity from Jack Johnson’s All At Once organization
• Blogged about the whole thing on a site that went from nonexistent to over 5,000 page views and 99 comments on 18 posts in one month

• Raised over $1600,*  and lots of awareness, that will help city and suburban kids learn about farming, nutrition, and the environment

This experiment, which I named Rice, Beans & Mixed Greens, was in part a fundraiser and in part my way of implementing Seth Godin’s concept of being remarkable. In brief, Seth acknowledges that word of mouth is the best marketing and publicity in the world. The catch is that to attract word of mouth, you have to do something worth re-marking upon. Hence, the need to be re-markable.

I wanted to see how effective I could be in leveraging a crazy idea along with the existing resources and network of an organization to attract attention and achieve results. The organization I worked with, Blandford Nature Center & Mixed Greens, has a creative staff that is willing to take some risks. They were willing to let me blog and communicate in a very open way and did a lot to support my efforts including attracting media. I made a personal commitment to be very honest during the process and share my experiences in a very public way.

The experience was difficult at times and incredibly rewarding at others. I’ve had a few weeks to reflect on it now. Here are the main lessons I learned, and ways that you can apply them in your own efforts :

Simple Actions = Big Results. The idea behind Rice, Beans & Mixed Greens was a simple one, but it got people’s attention. By living on $30 food for 30 days in the United States, people knew I was making a real sacrifice for a cause. That is a remarkable thing which has worked many times in the past. I just put a different spin on it.

How You Can Apply It: It’s easy to think that it takes a big idea or concept to make an impact. I’ve found that this isn’t true. People resonate with clear, simple, decisive action that shows commitment. When you think about ways to be remarkable, keep in mind that a streamlined idea is more powerful than a cluttered one.

Life Offers Many Chances to Test Your Integrity. It would have been the easiest thing ever for me to cheat during this process. I could have taken a different way home, gone through a drive through, wolfed down a greasy meal and disposed of the evidence. No one would have ever known. I say from the bottom of my heart that I did not cheat – not once – even though I had dozens of opportunities each day. Instead, I used each temptation as an integrity check. I paused, thought about my goal and why I was working toward it, and kept on my path.

How You Can Apply It: If you have something in your life that you are very committed to, approach temptation as an opportunity rather than a threat. Take a moment to remember why you are on your path and decide if it’s still valid for you. If not, go ahead and give in. However, if you want to continue to succeed in your current goals, keep moving forward no matter what is in the way.

Collaboration Multiplies Efforts. This is one of the most powerful lessons I took from this experience. Living for 30 days on $30 food is not that remarkable in and of itself. Billions of people live on that, or less, every day. What made my efforts truly remarkable was the collaboration I had with an organization that is all about food and ecology. Their mission and programs, along with my efforts, created a compelling story that drew media attention and action from the audience – in the form of donations, blog comments and offline discussions.

How You Can Apply It: When trying to do something big, don’t sit in your silo alone. Find a partner with compatible goals and take advantage of the logarithmic effect of collaboration. You don’t have to agree on everything, as long as you have enough common ground to build on.

Energy is Everything. It Comes From Many Sources. Food is a very important source of energy in our lives, and I wasn’t getting enough of it during my 30 days. At times I suffered from very low energy and all of its side effects such as lethargy, headaches, and diminished mental capacity. However, because of all the support and attention I got, I was able to draw on the energy of others and keep going forward. If I had been doing this alone, I don’t know that I could have finished.

How You Can Apply It: When you are working to achieve something big you are bound to run low on energy at times. Think of ways that you can re-energize yourself through contact with like-minded people, proper diet and exercise, meditation/visualization, or just taking a break. It’s important to plan these strategies out ahead of time so that you know what to do in a time of need and don’t get tempted to quit.

Criticism is Great! Like anything that gets attention on the Internet, my blog received some critical comments and a few unfavorable mentions in other blogs. Some of the criticism was well thought out and offered value. I tried to use it to improve the project when I could. Other criticism was just plain snarky, or coming from people who fundamentally disagreed with my worldview. There’s not a whole lot you can get out of this type of criticism, other than to take it as further proof that you are being remarkable.

How You Can Apply It: Recognize the difference between helpful and destructive criticism. Although it may not seem like it, all criticism is good – it means people are paying attention. Derive whatever value you can from it and move on.

People Are Much More Generous Than I Gave Them Credit For. I was continually amazed by the generosity of people that followed this project. Whether it was a journalist that went out of her way to cover the story, a friend or coworker writing a check that I knew was a huge amount of money for them, or strangers calling and writing out of nowhere to offer me food, I saw the very best of humanity in those 30 days. I’m fairly cynical by nature, so this was a very uplifting experience for me.

How You Can Apply It: Know that if you are acting with good intentions, most people will support you in your efforts, even if it’s just with a smile.

There is Huge Power in Keeping Commitments. A lot of things come pretty easy to me in life. I’m a quick learner so I can often get away with imperfect effort and only cursory planning. This is okay sometimes, but at other times it is important to really put forth all your efforts. This project gave me the opportunity to make a very public commitment and the motivation to stick with it no matter how difficult it got.

How You Can Apply It: Every time to you make a commitment and follow through on it you increase your power. If this is something you want to work on in your life, I highly recommend looking at Steve Pavlina’s writing about 30 day trials. Think about ONE (not three, or seven, or twenty-four) aspect of your life you want to improve and work on it for 30 days straight. At the end of the month I guarantee you will feel better about yourself.

Sometimes All They Want is Sensationalism. I was pretty disappointed by my segment on Mitch Albom’s radio show. Mitch is a well known journalist, sports commentator and the guy who wrote Tuesdays With Morrie, so I figured he would do a somewhat insightful interview. I was wrong. For six minutes he basically grilled me on what I could possibly be eating and why I wasn’t dead yet. In the end, I realized that there is no such thing as bad publicity and I was just happy to be heard by a larger audience.

How You Can Apply It: Don’t turn down an opportunity just because it’s not as sincere as you’d like it to be. Unless we’re talking about something that is degrading or humiliating, it’s okay to get a little off your chosen path if it helps you move forward.

Everyone Gets Something Different Out of It. I was surprised by the attention that I received from a small community of frugal bloggers. They were really attracted to the ways that I saved money on food purchases. To me that was purely incidental to the main goals of the project, but it was important to them and they were able to learn from me. In a way, I was able to add value to a community without doing anything extra. I’ll take it.

How You Can Apply It: Approach your project as a big party and be willing to accept whatever people bring to it. If someone gets value from focusing on one small aspect of what you’re doing, accept it as an added bonus or an opportunity to set your targets differently.

It’s Scary to be Open. It’s Also Rewarding. I made a commitment at the beginning of the project to be very open about my experiences whether they were good, bad or ugly. Well, a couple of times they got plain ugly and I was obligated to share that. In this recording I shared one of my lowest points of the month. It was a scary thing to do, but it also drew a huge wave of support that helped me continue. I also stepped outside of my blogging comfort zone a few times by posting videos and photos of me looking less than my best! However, that type of content really helped people connect with me and kept them loyal to the project until the end.

How You Can Apply It: If you want people to support you, you have to be willing to be who you are. Human beings are very good at sensing when someone is holding back the whole truth, so it is vital to be honest. That means you will reveal yourself as flawed and all-too human. This is a good thing. No one can identify with perfection. Show off a few scars (well, maybe not literally!) and your audience will find it much easier to connect with you.

I Have a Wonderful Support Network. During this project I had far more offers of help than I was able to take advantage of. People lined up to work out food barters and other ways to help me. I now have demonstrated proof that no matter what happens to me, I will never go hungry in all my life. My friends and family won’t allow it. That’s very empowering and also humbling. Thanks, everyone. I love you too.

How You Can Apply It: Unless you are a hermit (and I’m guessing most hermits don’t have Internet access), you have more people than you may realize that would be more than happy to help you out if you asked. Say thank you, right now, just because they’re there. You may never need them, but they’ll be there if you do.

Being Remarkable is More Fun Than You Can Imagine. It seems like half-starving myself for 30 days, running around constantly doing media and volunteering, and trying to keep up with 2 blogs for a month would be anything but fun. Wrong! I had more fun during the project than I usually have in 3 months. I met great people, had the chance to do cool stuff, and was the center of attention in my office. Even better, at the end of the project I had the chance to go to Key West for a week and enjoy 7 guilt free days of eating frozen key lime pie on a stick, knowing that I had some weight I needed to gain back!

How You Can Apply It: I hope you can guess this by now – do something crazy, something bold, something that will move you down your path in life like a rocket! Do it for a short, defined amount of time, but put your best effort into it. You are guaranteed to be surprised by the results.

As you can see from my experiences, striving to be remarkable is a really powerful way of moving further along your path. I like to think of it as being crazy with a purpose! Of course I have to add that although my project is over, you are still welcome to make donations to Blandford Nature Center & Mixed Greens. For more information, check out their online donation options

If you have a story of your efforts to be remarkable, share it with us in the comments, or on your own blog.

If you’d like to read more stories about ME being crazy, sign up to receive automatic updates from this site using an RSS feed reader or in your email.

*I’m counting some donations – including a $100 check that I delivered personally – that came in after the technical “close” of the project and the celebratory photograph, as well as the 1-1 match from All At Once which effectively doubles my efforts.

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After looking at the video series (you will find one at the end of this post), I decided that it would be great if Jef explained his concepts for all of you, rather than trying to summarize his work myself. He kindly agreed to answer a few questions. I hope you find his answers as interesting as I did.

Could you please describe your concept of Red Monkey Innovation Management?

The concept started to develop itself a few years ago. During one of my seminars one of the participants asked me where to start with very confrontational change projects. At that moment, I had just learned about the origin of the rich bio diversity in a rain forest. It didn’t start at the middle of the forest but at the edge where different species from different eco systems ‘meet’. At the spot I created a metaphor of a brown monkey from the jungle that meets a red fish from the sea. They start ‘talking’ and from their conversation a new confrontational idea is born: a Red Monkey. I then asked what would happen if that confrontational idea would be dropped in the middle of the jungle. The answer was unanimous … it would be killed. I then said the same happens with confrontational ideas that are ‘dropped’ in the middle of an organisation … they get killed also. Innovation ‘never’ start at the middle of an organisation but as the edge …

How do a Red Monkeys travel from the fringes to the center of an organization?

Red Monkeys are created by Red Monkey breeders or ‘creators’ … they communicate with ‘Pioneers’ who are able to envision the potential of the idea and are able to make the idea work. When there is a proof of concept the idea is handed over to ‘followers’ to make the proof of concept operational.

Red Monkeys will no doubt encounter resistance. How do they overcome that resistance and become accepted?

Red Monkey Hunters are the opponents of new ideas. Most of the time they don’t understand the idea because it is not brought into practice yet. Sometimes they do understand the idea but realize it could become a treat for their existence. A confrontational idea is always an opportunity for people who believe in the idea but at the same time it also a treat. The only way to overcome resistance is to make it work and proof its value.

Can an entire organization be Red Monkey minded? I’m thinking of companies like Apple or Pixar that are known for constant innovation. Or is it just that these types of organizations have more Red Monkey Breeders than their competitors?

Not everyone has to be a Red Monkey Breeder but organisations have to build in such a way that Red Monkeys (confrontational ideas) can be handed over from creators to pioneers to followers. If this process … what I call Red Monkey Innovation Management is disturbed an organisation can’t be innovative enough to survive in a faster changing environment. Innovative organisations have this ‘hand over’ process

If an organisation doesn’t have any Red Monkeys breeders right now, where can it find some?

It has to go and find them outside of the company. Every organisation has to do this … this is called open innovation. An organisation that only looks for Red Monkey Breeders within the company will not be able to renew its business portfolio fast enough.

How do human resources and hiring practices fit into the cultivation of Red Monkey breeders? How about organizational culture?

In order to install a Red Monkey Innovation process organisations have to transform their organizational culture … and that’s the most difficult part. You can’t build a really innovative organisation with today’s management. And since management itself is responsible for organizatonal culture change it seems nearly impossible. How to do that is another story.

As a bonus, here is the first part of Jef’s video series explaining Red Monkeys:

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Never the Same River Twice is an odd name for a blog. It breaks all the rules for website naming. It’s a long URL, it references a somewhat obscure idea, and it’s badly translated from the Greek.

For those who are unfamiliar with the pre-Socratic philosophers, Heraclitus is most famous for his theory of constant change. Essentially, he believed that all matter is constantly being transformed at such a fast rate that if you step into a river and step out again, by the time you are able to put your foot into the river again it will not be the same. When I think about the rate that the world seems to be changing, it seems like a very modern thought.

To me, Never the Same River Twice is an abbreviation of a concept that I hope to explore in this blog. For as long as I can remember, I have been fascinated by the ever-changing nature of the reality that each of us experience. I’ve studied it, tried to understand it, and struggled to coexist with it in some semblance of harmony.

Increasingly, I am drawn to the idea of traveling lightly through this world and experience what it gives me. As it becomes harder and harder to hold onto everything I desire, I am beginning to realize that I will have to learn different ways of relating to myself, other humans, and the interesting trip we are all on.

Writing is one of the ways that I experiment with ideas. To some extent this blog is a pure indulgence, a place for me to record my mental ramblings. However, I have a half-formed hope that my research and writings could be helpful to others who may be curious about change and how we deal with it. The subject matter of this blog will probably evolve (how fitting) over time, but for now, my vision is to write about the following subjects:

• Change and change management on the personal, organizational, and societal levels.
• Stories of other people that have had transformative experiences.
• Innovation and creativity and how they happen.
• The occasional miscellaneous rambling

I hope you find the subject matter interesting and useful. If not, I’m open to suggestions!

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